Author Topic: looking for some insight... (Read 1402 times)

z71vortec · « **on:** September 26, 2010, 02:34:51 PM »

have an 05 avalanche that is completely stock... and i would like to start with the computer tuning first...

i really dont know what i need for what i want... so i need a little help

im stock now but over time i want to add a full exhaust including headers, intake, higher lift rockers, and then top it off with a supercharger... need something that can cover the tuning from stock to everything i listed... but i want to start programing first... tuning is the heart of all mods and thats where it should begin. some help with the best tuner out for my needs?

oHIobellboy · « **Reply #1 on:** September 26, 2010, 03:07:35 PM »

If you're eventually going to go FI, I would go straight to HPTuners. It isn't the cheapest or easiest but there are a lot of people out there using it hence a lot of support from users. We have some members on here that use it to a great degree of success. I'm sure they'll chime in once they see the thread.

MyBigToy · « **Reply #2 on:** September 26, 2010, 09:04:47 PM »

I'd agree with OBB. You could also go with EFILive but there are not as many people using it as HPT. It might be a good idea to go ahead and get it and start learning before you go FI. That way you have some time to figure out what you're doing.

Main One · « **Reply #3 on:** September 27, 2010, 10:58:50 AM »

Another HPTuners user here, although not Forced Induction, at least not yet!

The laptop based tuning tools offer more flexibility, feedback from the engine computer and tools than the hand helds. HPTuners offers not only the ability to tweak the tune data file, but for forced induction applications they offer different engine control programs based upon just how much boost you want to make. Many people make by with just tuning the parameters used by the stock engine program, but you may be interested in their 1-bar enhanced, 2-bar, 2.5-bar, or 3-bar engine control programs which among other things extend the volumetric efficiency tables to higher levels of intake manifold pressure. HPTuners also has their own forum as well as a repository of other folks' tunes for you to download and get some insight as to how someone else with a similar setup did their tune.

Will probably cost you $500 (without the computer) but just the scanning function alone gives you great insight into what you engine computer is seeing from the various sensors that is very valuable. If you get the pro interface, you can record data without the laptop in the vehicle for later downloading, as well as use it to record data from wide-band O2 sensors and other 0-5v analog data sources and view that data along with all of your other recorded parameters.

z71vortec · « **Reply #4 on:** September 27, 2010, 07:44:25 PM »

is this system simple? and practical for everyday use? this is going to be my daily driver... im not much of a tuner of sorts... and there is no real tuning shops around here even if i wanted to have somebody else deal with it... non of the handhelds out there can handle what i want? i mean... if this system is simple then i guess that i could give it a shot...

MyBigToy · « **Reply #5 on:** September 27, 2010, 08:15:05 PM »

Quote from: z71vortec on September 27, 2010, 07:44:25 PM

is this system simple? and practical for everyday use? this is going to be my daily driver... im not much of a tuner of sorts... and there is no real tuning shops around here even if i wanted to have somebody else deal with it... non of the handhelds out there can handle what i want? i mean... if this system is simple then i guess that i could give it a shot...

Sorry but any tuning software is anything but simple. That said, you won't be tuning a supercharger with a handheld. It sounds like the best route for you is to purchase a tune from a tuner like Nelson Performance, Black Bear, or Wheatley. They provide free re-tunes so you could get a retune each time you upgrade the system.

oHIobellboy · « **Reply #6 on:** September 27, 2010, 08:31:46 PM »

Quote from: MyBigToy on September 27, 2010, 08:15:05 PM

Sorry but any tuning software is anything but simple. That said, you won't be tuning a supercharger with a handheld. It sounds like the best route for you is to purchase a tune from a tuner like Nelson Performance, Black Bear, or Wheatley. They provide free re-tunes so you could get a retune each time you upgrade the system.

So how does one go about getting that tune installed MBT? Thought I'd toss that question out there for anyone that didn't already know.

MyBigToy · « **Reply #7 on:** September 27, 2010, 08:39:58 PM »

Quote from: oHIobellboy on September 27, 2010, 08:31:46 PM

So how does one go about getting that tune installed MBT? Thought I'd toss that question out there for anyone that didn't already know.

You can either purchase a new PCM with the tune in it or send your pcm in to have the tune loaded (Nelson). I believe Black Bear loans you a handheld to load the updated tune; you can also log data with the handheld, send it back, and they will adjust your tune based on real-life scanning data. I'm not sure what Wheatley does as I've not looked into his tuning. All three of these tuners have a really good reputation.

Ski Edition · « **Reply #8 on:** September 27, 2010, 08:58:51 PM »

I can help you with Black Bear, as I just got a tune from them. They have 3 ways you can go. I currently went with the first level, which is just a basic PCM swap. You fill out a form of changes that you have made or plan on making in the near future and they program a PCM and send it to you. You swap the PCMs out, do a security relearn/crank relearn and your good to go. That costs $300 and send your PCM back and your get $100 back.

Their next step is a logging tune. They send you a cable and hook it to your laptop and your truck and do 100 miles of normal driving. You will email that file to them and they will email you the tune and can upload the tune through your laptop. (Currently they have about a 6 week waiting list). Putting in a new cam in the weekend of 10/8 and should be getting my cable soon after that.

Their 3rd level is EFI Live which I put in the realm of HP Tuners. There are a few reasons I didn't go this route. My AV is not heavily modded and I'm not that technically inclined. I have read a lot on EFI Live and HP Tuners and I just don't understand a large amount of the language.

Hope this helps.

Ski Edition · « **Reply #9 on:** September 27, 2010, 10:29:36 PM »

I read this thread from another site a long time ago and this pretty well told me I didn't want to mess with tuning my truck.

http://performancetrucks.net/forums/showthread.php?t=373848

Main One · « **Reply #10 on:** September 28, 2010, 03:31:28 PM »

Quote from: z71vortec on September 27, 2010, 07:44:25 PM

is this system simple? and practical for everyday use? this is going to be my daily driver... im not much of a tuner of sorts... and there is no real tuning shops around here even if i wanted to have somebody else deal with it... non of the handhelds out there can handle what i want? i mean... if this system is simple then i guess that i could give it a shot...

I guess I have a different opinion than MyBigToy, and I feel that while the link provided by Ski Edition shows the power of the tuning software options, it does tend to make the tuning process seem overwhelming. Unless you are tuning an engine from scratch, you are usually making tweaks to just a few of the 500 data parameters in an engine tune at one time. Add a cam, you will likely want to adjust some idle parameters, knock sensor sensitivity, volumetric efficiency table, and possibly shift points. Add a high stall torque converter, you will probably want to change some shift points. Want a firmer shift? You can get that by changing the programmed shift time and possibly other parameters. With a handheld for instance, you can change the WOT shift points, and can select either a stock or firm shift, but not have much other control over the tranny operation.

There are folks out there that have bought tuning software and have never really used it. I would encourage you if you want to know what your engine is doing, and would like to make some tweaks without getting your hands dirty, to give it a try. If you've figured out how to use a computer to get on this site, you can figure out how to make some simple adjustments to how your engine and tranny work. Can you screw it up? Absolutely! You could also screw up and hit a semi head-on but I assume you've managed to avoid that so far.

What I did, was start out with a Hypertech programmer. I then decided I wanted to go with the laptop software, and was able to download into the laptop the Hypertech 87 and 93 octane programs, with normal and firm shift settings respectively. I put the stock program back into the truck, and was able to download that as well. I then sold the Hypertech for half of what I paid for it, reloaded via the computer the Hypertech program, and have made adjustments from there.

z71vortec · « **Reply #11 on:** September 28, 2010, 10:11:10 PM »

so anotherwords i just cant pop on a supercharger with a full exhaust without using complicated tuning software? doesnt most supercharger kits come with downloads or piggyback units?

MyBigToy · « **Reply #12 on:** September 29, 2010, 06:09:11 AM »

Quote from: z71vortec on September 28, 2010, 10:11:10 PM

so anotherwords i just cant pop on a supercharger with a full exhaust without using complicated tuning software? doesnt most supercharger kits come with downloads or piggyback units?

Yes, you can use the canned software that comes with the supercharger that's typically loaded with a handheld. But you're leaving quite a bit of power/drivability/etc. on the table when you go this route. And, I can tell you from experience, it's a slippery slope once you get started adding power.

I've never added up the money I've spent on power additions and I don't want to.

Suffice it to say I'm sure it's in excess of $9000.

I believe I've finally got it where I want it so I'm just going to drive it and enjoy it now.

Main One · « **Reply #13 on:** September 29, 2010, 09:43:31 AM »

Quote from: z71vortec on September 28, 2010, 10:11:10 PM

so anotherwords i just cant pop on a supercharger with a full exhaust without using complicated tuning software? doesnt most supercharger kits come with downloads or piggyback units?

I pretty much agree with MBT on this question. Yes, you can do it, but if you tweak beyond just adding a supercharger, you'll probably want a custom tune. You can either do it yourself, pay someone else to do it for you, or find another enthusiast nearby who has a license for your vehicle who can do it for you.

HPTuners, and I assume EFILive, has a comparison tool that allows you to see what's been changed between for instance your truck's stock tune and one you got from the SC manufacturer. That can give you some insight into what the SC manufacturer thought needed to be addressed, and you will probably see that they leave most of the parameters alone.

From what I've seen, most of the SCs give you with their standard pulleys about 150 HP. That is a pretty safe amount of extra power, and can in many cases be supported by your stock fuel injectors if your SC kit includes a fuel pressure regulator that kicks up fuel pressure when your SC is adding boost. If you go much beyond 150 HP, you will quickly be in the realm where a custom tune is pretty much required. For isntance you may be running non-stock fuel injectors at that point, requiring the fuel injector parameters to be changed in the tune, among many other things you will likely need to be tweaked. With the extra torque you are likely getting from the SC, you will probably prefer that the tranny hold gears before downshifting under part-throttle conditions.

z71vortec · « **Reply #14 on:** September 29, 2010, 05:39:54 PM »

ok then... so how much is this HP tuners kit and software... cause i am now confident that there are other members on this board that can help me along the way... as i am also sure that i can learn it for myself with your guys help... not looking to make a race truck at all... just want it to sound cool and get up and go quite decent for its size and weight...

Main One · « **Reply #15 on:** September 30, 2010, 08:38:00 AM »

Quote from: z71vortec on September 29, 2010, 05:39:54 PM

ok then... so how much is this HP tuners kit and software... cause i am now confident that there are other members on this board that can help me along the way... as i am also sure that i can learn it for myself with your guys help... not looking to make a race truck at all... just want it to sound cool and get up and go quite decent for its size and weight...

See the link below to HPTuners web site, but it starts at $499 with the standard interface, $649 for the pro interface. I've got the pro interface due to when they were discontinuing support for my original serial port interface, they offered a deal to upgrade to the pro. You can read on their web site, but to my knowledge all that the pro adds is the ability to log sensor data that is not on the OBDII port, such as maybe a wideband O2 sensor, which I haven't yet used, but may one day, and the ability to log and store data for later downloading to a laptop, which I do use quite regularly, instead of having to have the laptop up and running while recording data. Since my laptop's battery doesn't keep it alive for more than about 10 minutes these days, I'd be limited to 10 minute or so data log vice being able to record data for over an hour that is stored on the interface and then I can take it in the house and download with the laptop plugged into the wall.

HPTuners has gone to a credit system, whereby you can buy and spend credits to be able to tune specific VIN numbers, or for more credits, say all 2003 Avalanches. As the link notes, with the 8 credits that come with the minimum packages, you'll be able to tune at least 2 vehicles.

http://www.hptuners.com/order.php

MyBigToy · « **Reply #16 on:** September 30, 2010, 11:41:05 AM »

I'll add one additional comment - I was able to purchase my HPT used for $250 with 4 credits left on it. I watched several forums for quite some time before I was the first one in line; they don't last long once someone posts on for sale, unless they have it priced too high. Credits cost $50 each. I'm not seeing as many "for sale" ads as I used to so this may not be an option for you unless you are as patient as I was - it took somewhere around 1-1/2 years.

z71vortec · « **Reply #17 on:** October 02, 2010, 09:50:56 PM »

after i load up this unit and start playing around with it, if for any reasone at all i decided to go back to a fully stock tune, can this be done?

oHIobellboy · « **Reply #18 on:** October 03, 2010, 05:08:59 AM »

Quote from: z71vortec on October 02, 2010, 09:50:56 PM

after i load up this unit and start playing around with it, if for any reasone at all i decided to go back to a fully stock tune, can this be done?

Yes, First this you do with any tuning equipment is backup your stock tune and it will always be available.

Main One · « **Reply #19 on:** October 04, 2010, 03:25:21 PM »

Quote from: z71vortec on October 02, 2010, 09:50:56 PM

after i load up this unit and start playing around with it, if for any reasone at all i decided to go back to a fully stock tune, can this be done?

Yes, as OBB said one of the first things you will want to do is save your stock tune on your computer. I use the compare function quite regularly to see where I'm at relative to the stock tune, so having the copy of it to use with the compare tool is where I use it most often.